That is indeed a perspective I haven't heard before, and a very good argument for only writing in standard English. Or an argument for always releasing an audio version. You must get some very weird phrases. Some audiobooks can be pretty shocking on accents as well. I listened to one recently where the actor was great on the majority of characters who were middle-class Londoners, but there was one Liverpudlian policeman character and it was like listening to an extended bad impression of Paul McCartney.
Much enjoyed reading this Jacqueline. I write what I call my 'Meanders' of my life back in the northeast having left it some 50 years ago as an economic migrant. One or two of those pieces have covered accent/dialect and it's Angle origins (the Saxons were all southern based). I recall buying Larn yersel Geordie for my first wife (born in Kent) back in 1975 to help her with translation. Interestingly the Kent miners I met used several Geordie words such as Marra and Kidda (although strictly speaking they are more Pitmatic than Geordie) that I assume came from past generation northeasten émigrés who fancied warmer southern climes. Anyway, great piece and gan canny 😉
Thanks Harry. I've just subscribed to your Meanders and I'll have to search out your accent and dialect pieces. As I said, I've only shared my life with a Geordie for 26 years so I'm still learning! I can vividly remember the first time I met one of his uncles in 1999, he may as well have been speaking Norwegian :-) The Larn Yersel Geordie book actually came from my friend's dad about 20 years ago when he was clearing out his bookshelves - he'd been to Newcastle university from Lancaster in the 70s. That's really interesting about the Kent miners; there was a bit of shuffling about between coalfields, I've seen in the census records various Drighlington miners going to Durham and some came back again too.
Yes, we are a migratory lot, we northeasteners. Feel free to browse my pieces but this is the one in which I delve into what is a Geordie, the dialect and the 'Great Fire of Newcastle'...
PS J B Priestley hated the Geordie accent - in his English Journey, he has little good to say about the northeast in general. No surprise though, given he was from Yorkshire.
This is so interesting! For what it's worth, I didn't read the accents and dialect in The Secret Garden as meant to make us look down on the characters (and it certainly didn’t do that for me as a child reading it far away in the US). The characters who speak ”broad Yorkshire” are the most adult and sane people in the novel, including the children (the maid, Martha, who is a child herself, and her younger brother). But to your point: I have huge amounts of dialog from the book in my head still, spelling and all, but to this day I have no idea of how they are actually supposed to sound!
Ah, that's interesting - you have to remember how class-conscious the UK is though :-) This says so much about intention vs how readers of different backgrounds perceive it, which could no doubt be the subject of a post in itself! The only dialect I remember from it is 'gradely' which I don't think I've ever heard anyone say.
You know, I did a long reply just now and then suddenly realized that I could well have found it offensive if it were an American dialect involved. So now I don't know what I think 😊.
But as a child, anyway, I took it that the whole point of the novel was that the class distinctions were dumb, and that those who judged other people's wisdom on the basis of their speech were stupid.
Here is the a key passage, where two people are discussing the only really sane, wise, responsible adult in the whole book:
"I believe Susan Sowerby's right—I do that," said Mrs. Medlock. "I stopped in her cottage on my way to Thwaite yesterday and had a bit of talk with her. And she says to me, 'Well, Sarah Ann, she mayn't be a good child, an' she mayn't be a pretty one, but she's a child, an' children needs children.' We went to school together, Susan Sowerby and me."
"She's the best sick nurse I know," said Dr. Craven. "When I find her in a cottage I know the chances are that I shall save my patient."
Mrs. Medlock smiled. She was fond of Susan Sowerby.
"She's got a way with her, has Susan," she went on quite volubly. "I've been thinking all morning of one thing she said yesterday. She says, 'Once when I was givin' th' children a bit of a preach after they'd been fightin' I ses to 'em all, "When I was at school my jography told as th'[Pg 245] world was shaped like a orange an' I found out before I was ten that th' whole orange doesn't belong to nobody. No one owns more than his bit of a quarter an' there's times it seems like there's not enow quarters to go round. But don't you—none o' you—think as you own th' whole orange or you'll find out you're mistaken, an' you won't find it out without hard knocks." What children learns from children,' she says, 'is that there's no sense in grabbin' at th' whole orange—peel an' all. If you do you'll likely not get even th' pips, an' them's too bitter to eat.'"
"She's a shrewd woman," said Dr. Craven, putting on his coat.
"Well, she's got a way of saying things," ended Mrs. Medlock, much pleased. "Sometimes I've said to her, 'Eh! Susan, if you was a different woman an' didn't talk such broad Yorkshire I've seen the times when I should have said you was clever.'"
We the readers know that Susan Sowerby is worth 10 of both the doctor and Mrs. Medlock…
That is indeed a perspective I haven't heard before, and a very good argument for only writing in standard English. Or an argument for always releasing an audio version. You must get some very weird phrases. Some audiobooks can be pretty shocking on accents as well. I listened to one recently where the actor was great on the majority of characters who were middle-class Londoners, but there was one Liverpudlian policeman character and it was like listening to an extended bad impression of Paul McCartney.
Much enjoyed reading this Jacqueline. I write what I call my 'Meanders' of my life back in the northeast having left it some 50 years ago as an economic migrant. One or two of those pieces have covered accent/dialect and it's Angle origins (the Saxons were all southern based). I recall buying Larn yersel Geordie for my first wife (born in Kent) back in 1975 to help her with translation. Interestingly the Kent miners I met used several Geordie words such as Marra and Kidda (although strictly speaking they are more Pitmatic than Geordie) that I assume came from past generation northeasten émigrés who fancied warmer southern climes. Anyway, great piece and gan canny 😉
Thanks Harry. I've just subscribed to your Meanders and I'll have to search out your accent and dialect pieces. As I said, I've only shared my life with a Geordie for 26 years so I'm still learning! I can vividly remember the first time I met one of his uncles in 1999, he may as well have been speaking Norwegian :-) The Larn Yersel Geordie book actually came from my friend's dad about 20 years ago when he was clearing out his bookshelves - he'd been to Newcastle university from Lancaster in the 70s. That's really interesting about the Kent miners; there was a bit of shuffling about between coalfields, I've seen in the census records various Drighlington miners going to Durham and some came back again too.
Yes, we are a migratory lot, we northeasteners. Feel free to browse my pieces but this is the one in which I delve into what is a Geordie, the dialect and the 'Great Fire of Newcastle'...
https://open.substack.com/pub/harrywatson/p/larn-yersel-geordie?r=1v4z4o&utm_medium=ios
PS J B Priestley hated the Geordie accent - in his English Journey, he has little good to say about the northeast in general. No surprise though, given he was from Yorkshire.
This is so interesting! For what it's worth, I didn't read the accents and dialect in The Secret Garden as meant to make us look down on the characters (and it certainly didn’t do that for me as a child reading it far away in the US). The characters who speak ”broad Yorkshire” are the most adult and sane people in the novel, including the children (the maid, Martha, who is a child herself, and her younger brother). But to your point: I have huge amounts of dialog from the book in my head still, spelling and all, but to this day I have no idea of how they are actually supposed to sound!
Ah, that's interesting - you have to remember how class-conscious the UK is though :-) This says so much about intention vs how readers of different backgrounds perceive it, which could no doubt be the subject of a post in itself! The only dialect I remember from it is 'gradely' which I don't think I've ever heard anyone say.
You know, I did a long reply just now and then suddenly realized that I could well have found it offensive if it were an American dialect involved. So now I don't know what I think 😊.
But as a child, anyway, I took it that the whole point of the novel was that the class distinctions were dumb, and that those who judged other people's wisdom on the basis of their speech were stupid.
Here is the a key passage, where two people are discussing the only really sane, wise, responsible adult in the whole book:
"I believe Susan Sowerby's right—I do that," said Mrs. Medlock. "I stopped in her cottage on my way to Thwaite yesterday and had a bit of talk with her. And she says to me, 'Well, Sarah Ann, she mayn't be a good child, an' she mayn't be a pretty one, but she's a child, an' children needs children.' We went to school together, Susan Sowerby and me."
"She's the best sick nurse I know," said Dr. Craven. "When I find her in a cottage I know the chances are that I shall save my patient."
Mrs. Medlock smiled. She was fond of Susan Sowerby.
"She's got a way with her, has Susan," she went on quite volubly. "I've been thinking all morning of one thing she said yesterday. She says, 'Once when I was givin' th' children a bit of a preach after they'd been fightin' I ses to 'em all, "When I was at school my jography told as th'[Pg 245] world was shaped like a orange an' I found out before I was ten that th' whole orange doesn't belong to nobody. No one owns more than his bit of a quarter an' there's times it seems like there's not enow quarters to go round. But don't you—none o' you—think as you own th' whole orange or you'll find out you're mistaken, an' you won't find it out without hard knocks." What children learns from children,' she says, 'is that there's no sense in grabbin' at th' whole orange—peel an' all. If you do you'll likely not get even th' pips, an' them's too bitter to eat.'"
"She's a shrewd woman," said Dr. Craven, putting on his coat.
"Well, she's got a way of saying things," ended Mrs. Medlock, much pleased. "Sometimes I've said to her, 'Eh! Susan, if you was a different woman an' didn't talk such broad Yorkshire I've seen the times when I should have said you was clever.'"
We the readers know that Susan Sowerby is worth 10 of both the doctor and Mrs. Medlock…
(Could well have found the book's use of dialect offensive, I mean, not my own reply.)